Are Roman Catholics saved?--Where do I find truth?? randy carson 4 dummies catholic answers

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#76   Yesterday, 1:56 pm

JonNC Forum Master   Join Date: December 15, 2007 Posts: 14,396 Religion: Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by rinnie I asked this on another site and its got me thinking! Oh NO! Okay here it is. What makes one Protestant Preachers version of the Truth correct or incorrect over another Protestant Preachers version. Lets say I go to one Protestant Church and the Preacher teaches me that this is what the word of God is saying, and then the next says this, and so on and I go to 10 different Protestant Preachers and get ten meanings. Who do you feel is right? And how do you know which one is right? Hi rinnie, As you can see by my post to Randy, the issue of differences between communions is more than a protestant issue. In Lutheranism, it isn't pastors that have a version of the Truth. They are bound to the scripture and the confessions. As a Lutheran layman, I "feel" the confessions are a right reflection of scriptures. What other communions teach is up to them, but if they teach contrary to the confessions and scripture, we would be in disagreement. Jon __________________ "It would be easy to fill many pages with the declarations of the Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and of her great theologians, who, without a dissenting voice, repudiate this doctrine [consubstantiation]... Charles Porterfield Krauth

#77   Yesterday, 1:58 pm

JonNC Forum Master   Join Date: December 15, 2007 Posts: 14,396 Religion: Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: =Randy Carson;11310954]Yes, it is very simple. And not biblical. I agree Randy, and it is a much older problem than the 1500's. Quote: You see, Jesus did not tell us to take our disagreements to the "churches" because He only promised to build one Church. Again, I agree. Jon __________________ "It would be easy to fill many pages with the declarations of the Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and of her great theologians, who, without a dissenting voice, repudiate this doctrine [consubstantiation]... Charles Porterfield Krauth

#78   Yesterday, 1:59 pm

Randy Carson Veteran Member   Join Date: September 22, 2006 Posts: 10,889 Religion: Protestant Convert to Catholicism

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by JonNC The Filioque The Universal jurisdiction of the pope Dormition vs. Assumption. Oh, wait. That's differences between Orthodox and Catholic. Sorry. Jon Correct, Jon. Those are issues that have created schism (though we're closer on two of them than you might think). But again, the person to whom I was responding asked for doctrines that Protestants disagree on...I don't think he expected any responses. __________________ Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79 I'm a Catholic. You have questions. Let's get started.

#79   Yesterday, 2:04 pm

JonNC Forum Master   Join Date: December 15, 2007 Posts: 14,396 Religion: Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by Randy Carson Correct, Jon. Those are issues that have created schism (though we're closer on two of them than you might think). But again, the person to whom I was responding asked for doctrines that Protestants disagree on...I don't think he expected any responses. And you are clearly correct. To claim that there are no differences, or that they are minor, or non-essentials, may be true in the Reformed churches and their "offspring", but from a Lutheran perspective, the differences are huge, and for this Lutheran, insurmountable. Jon __________________ "It would be easy to fill many pages with the declarations of the Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and of her great theologians, who, without a dissenting voice, repudiate this doctrine [consubstantiation]... Charles Porterfield Krauth

#80   Yesterday, 2:07 pm

Randy Carson Veteran Member   Join Date: September 22, 2006 Posts: 10,889 Religion: Protestant Convert to Catholicism

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by JonNC And you are clearly correct. To claim that there are no differences, or that they are minor, or non-essentials, may be true in the Reformed churches and their "offspring", but from a Lutheran perspective, the differences are huge, and for this Lutheran, insurmountable. Jon Help me out here...differences between who/whom are huge? __________________ Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79 I'm a Catholic. You have questions. Let's get started.

#81   Yesterday, 2:09 pm

JonNC Forum Master   Join Date: December 15, 2007 Posts: 14,396 Religion: Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by Randy Carson Help me out here...differences between who/whom are huge? Lutherans and protestants, generally. Sorry, I wasn't clear. On your list, Infant baptism. Ordination of women. Real Presence v. Symbolic Commemoration. Baptismal Regeneration. Eternal Security. Predestination of the Elect. The Rapture, we are on opposite sides of most, if not all of these. Jon __________________ "It would be easy to fill many pages with the declarations of the Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and of her great theologians, who, without a dissenting voice, repudiate this doctrine [consubstantiation]... Charles Porterfield Krauth

#82   Yesterday, 2:43 pm

Porknpie Regular Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: April 11, 2012 Posts: 2,123 Religion: Catholic n Catholic (pie is a convert)

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by dronald This [my insert: the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist] is the only relevant one imo. DRonald - When Jesus himself says "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." How can the Eucharist be the only relevant one? Why wouldn't you say first that a dispute over a condition of salvation would be first?? PnP __________________ My favorite Jesuit - September 25th Homily: How we can learn from the Priest Ezra “Frankness is a part of dialogue; this is the only way that knowledge can grow. You have been very frank with me and so you will permit me to be frank too.” Pope Benedict

#83   Yesterday, 3:14 pm

Per Crucem New Member   Join Date: September 15, 2013 Posts: 188 Religion: Lutheran (ELDoNA)

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by JonNC Lutherans and protestants, generally. Sorry, I wasn't clear. On your list, Infant baptism. Ordination of women. Real Presence v. Symbolic Commemoration. Baptismal Regeneration. Eternal Security. Predestination of the Elect. The Rapture, we are on opposite sides of most, if not all of these. Jon I would second that. The differences between Lutherans and other Protestants is far greater than the differences between Lutherans and Catholics/Orthodox in general. The closest to us would be the Anglicans, but even that depends on whether the Anglican is more Catholic on the sacraments or Reformed.

#84   Yesterday, 3:20 pm

Per Crucem New Member   Join Date: September 15, 2013 Posts: 188 Religion: Lutheran (ELDoNA)

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by Randy Carson Correct, Jon. Those are issues that have created schism (though we're closer on two of them than you might think). After seeing your interaction with some of the lovely Orthodox posters around these parts, we're probably closer to you than they are

#85   Yesterday, 4:16 pm

rinnie Veteran Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: September 17, 2007 Posts: 11,461 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by Per Crucem I would second that. The differences between Lutherans and other Protestants is far greater than the differences between Lutherans and Catholics/Orthodox in general. The closest to us would be the Anglicans, but even that depends on whether the Anglican is more Catholic on the sacraments or Reformed. Here is what I have been told. THe further the Church is from the Catholic Church the further it is from the truth. It makes sense also because you are right the Lutherans and Catholics have probally the most in common. THen the Church that broke off with them have less in common with the Catholic Church but more with Lutherans. Etc.

#86   Yesterday, 4:44 pm

Randy Carson Veteran Member   Join Date: September 22, 2006 Posts: 10,889 Religion: Protestant Convert to Catholicism

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by Per Crucem After seeing your interaction with some of the lovely Orthodox posters around these parts, we're probably closer to you than they are I have come to the same realization. Unfortunately, they will see that as one more proof of the errors of Catholicism to be laid at the feet of the Bishop of Rome. __________________ Tiber Swim Team - Class of '79 I'm a Catholic. You have questions. Let's get started.

#87   Yesterday, 5:00 pm

Per Crucem New Member   Join Date: September 15, 2013 Posts: 188 Religion: Lutheran (ELDoNA)

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by rinnie Here is what I have been told. THe further the Church is from the Catholic Church the further it is from the truth. It makes sense also because you are right the Lutherans and Catholics have probally the most in common. THen the Church that broke off with them have less in common with the Catholic Church but more with Lutherans. Etc. I wouldn't agree with the latter. The Lutherans broke away from union with the Bishop of Rome and then you had the Reformed which also broke off from Rome, under the influence of Zwingli, Bucer, and later Calvin. You also have the Anglicans which broke from Rome and the anabaptists that broke from Rome. None of them broke away from the Lutherans (realizing that Luther had some influence of the development of some Reformed thought). Ultimately, though, the other groups have little to do with us theologically. The Reformed do not have more in common with us than we do with Catholics. Yes, they share our understanding of sola fide to some degree, but not even so much there, since they divorce sola fide from the sacraments.

#88   Yesterday, 5:05 pm

Per Crucem New Member   Join Date: September 15, 2013 Posts: 188 Religion: Lutheran (ELDoNA)

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by Randy Carson I have come to the same realization. Unfortunately, they will see that as one more proof of the errors of Catholicism to be laid at the feet of the Bishop of Rome. Yes and they do, very vocally. For our part, we have little response to that accusation, since we acknowledge that the Bishops of Rome are part of our theological heritage. We make no bones about the fact that we are Western in our thought and don't particularly find Eastern thought attractive. Though we do have a closer understanding to them on the nature of the Eucharist (as mystery), church hierarchy, and incorporation of theosis (but even that descends from western thinking, esp. St. Augustine and St. Bernard of Clairveaux).

#89   Yesterday, 6:28 pm

benjohnson Regular Member   Join Date: May 16, 2012 Posts: 1,953 Religion: Lutheran - LC-MS

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by dronald The adaptation is not because of their interpretation, but rather because they want to be more inclusive and liberal. It's a joke. I've come to the conclusion that this 'inclusiveness' is perhaps not because our Liberal friends really love and respect the homosexual acts of homosexual attracted people, it's because they want to diminish the God given Law that to make their own sins (fornication, drug use, adultery et al) more palpable in their own eyes. That if they can expand the circle of 'good behavior' to include same-sex hanky panky, then by default their own behavior would have to be considered 'good.' Just a thought I've been ruminating over.

#90   Today, 4:52 am

rinnie Veteran Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: September 17, 2007 Posts: 11,461 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Question for all protestants Quote: Originally Posted by dronald Not every Priest agrees with every Priest, and when they consult the Church there isn't always a definitive answer. How is this different from Protestants? Okay this Could be possible. Because even the Pope and his Bishops will tell you if the truth has not been revealed by the Holy Spirit yet its hasn't been revealed. But my question is dealing more with lets say myself. Lets say I am a Protestant and I travel to many Churchs and find thousands of different truths. Then lets up the ante here. REALLY up it. I am a Protestant Preacher now. Whom do I go to. I want to go to the TOP now and find the truth. Whom do I go? Again if the truth has been revealed whom do I go? And lets say I study the bible Forever. Could tell you any verse etc and tell you what it means. Am I correct? Lets say I am one of the TOP Protestant Preachers, I am not sure if this is one, but lets say I am very very learned in scripture. VERY. And I disagree with another very good Protestant Preacher, and we Both have such a GOOD answer for what Jesus is saying its impossible for the human mind to say who is right. Where do I find truth?? My heart has never been more full of Love for any human being when I started this thread. It is something that has bothered me for my whole life. And I just need one skilled Protestant, rather a Preacher, Bishop etc to just give me ONE good answer. I have said this because I swear I did not start this to try to trick or nail any Protestant with the true answer they give me. I just need to know what the true answer is. The best I have got was I believe from you. And God bless you. There is no way to find truth. You must pick which Protestant Preacher you choose to believe I guess. Or I guess reject both and find your own truth that you can live with. But I am curious to see how this plays out. To see if I get any other answer then what you gave. Again God bless you for being so kind and honest.